The chart above of SKF (inverse financials) is nearing the top of its range. One would not normally buy this chart "up here", but the individual charts of the financial stocks are not improving. Their decline has no velocity, which means that fear never spikes, fireworks don't go off, and we never hit a bottom. Charts of Citi (C) and Goldman Sachs (GS) just carve out new lows on a daily basis, with no end in sight. GS deserves its fate, as does Citi. But thousands of other well run companies are being pulled down with the ship. Not fair.
Our guess, from a look at thousands of charts, is that the market will break its lows and head dramatically lower. The descending triangle on the indexes puts the odds in favor of further decline. Whether it's on this iteration, or after another rally or two, no one knows. One thing is for certain, people are giving up (or have already given up) on the scam that is Wall Street.
The cat is out of the bag... stocks are worth 14 cents per share, give or take.
It makes sense if you do the math. If a growth rate of 10% yields a p/e of 10 for a company earning $5 per share, then the stock is "worth" $50. But when growth slows to 0%, or turns negative, the stock has no value at all (other than the company's tangible assets divided by umpteen trillion outstanding shares). Either way, 14 cents is roughly the value of a single share of any publicly traded company.
So now that the public has accepted this previously guarded Wall Street secret, where will the market bottom? From the people we've spoken to, the answer is "who cares". Wall Street has dug their own grave, and there is little or no sympathy on Main Street. Furthermore, most people realize that the housing market in the U.S. dwarfs Wall Street. The housing market must be stabilized, as it accounts for 33% of our economy. Wall Street is only 5% of our economy. The more people we ask, the more we're finding that other than insofar as it affects their 401k's, people would rather see Wall Street crumble than survive.
From our own experience, in a recent land sale of $16 million, the buyer drove up in a Prius. Certainly someone with $16 million to spend on land does not have to worry about gas prices. So, of course, we had to ask about his choice of wheels. "Screw them", was his reply. A simple reply, but boy did he say a mouthful.
.......
Please participate in our new poll about the market's bottom.
45 comments:
Snot!
Talk to me about LDK!
LDK Reports on Wed.
Where do you feel LDK is going short term and long term!
Are you long LDK for earnings?
he just said its only worth 14 cents :-)
A Lesson to learn:
Never touch LDK before the earnings.
Where did he say that!?
LDK went up for 3 weeks after it's last earnings!
LDK is in stage 4.
Don't touch it.
Yes, don not touch LDK. Earning does not matter at this stage. If the market tanks, LDK will tank along with the market even if its Q3 earning is spectacular. In a bull market, LDK will be traded at $300 already.
No one should own any individual stocks right now. Warren Buffett bought GE at about $25 less than 2 months ago. Now it's $16. Unless you're far brighter than he is, you're going to get killed buying individual stocks in this market, whether earnings are positive or not.
We shouldn't even be in the indexes in this environment. Only buying Ultrashorts on rallies really makes sense right now. It's the only thing that's worked over the past year.
If short selling on most big financials was banned, what does SKF short?
Why is EEV and FXP a scam? FXP is not working right now because of the China bail out. EEV is made up of China in part. Their movement makes sense to me.
Signed,
Anonymous
Here is why EEV is a scam: EEV is 2x short the emerging market, But year to date EEM (emerging market) is down about 60% but EEV only up about 15%.
Conorsh,
Which article were you talking about reading? Sounds like the one by Michael Lewis that I posted about, but I wanted to know for sure....I haven't gotten to read the other 2 articles yet, but plan to do that this evening when I have a little time.
The CDS's were part of what brought Lehman down I believe. Also, the market took a hit more recently when certain Lehman CDS's were due to be settled. The problem seems to be that nobody really knows exactly who owns exactly what quantity of these evil little CDS's, and it even appears to me that nobody knows how much total CDS debt is out there floating around. This lack of certainty was indicated last month by several news articles when the Lehman CDS settlement dates arrived. The problem is magnified by the fact that when this paper is shorted, more CDS's can be created based on nothing more than the short. One thing is certain. There is apparently a lot more CDS paper out that has been created out of thin air than could ever be backed by even low rated bad loans. IMO, this is criminal financial maneuvering that should be well punished.
This is all very misleading and confusing, and the financial wizards who created this mess intended it to be exactly that. The bottom line is that the folks being punished are not the same folks who created this problem.
Our lawmakers allowed it by law, Greenspan refused to regulate it, and what we have left is a bunch of greedy crooks and broken wallets of hard working people.
Thanks
Agr8gem57
Snot,
I am so curious abou this, I can't resist asking: Recently you have sounded moderately bullish about the market until suddenly this SKF post with a more ominous sounding outlook about the not too distant future of the market. I've been negative all along since August or so, especially, but really since March. So, I'm wondering....what happened today that made you become bearish?
Agr8gem57
Kay,
Make no mistake, we know the market is as bad as it gets. When Gary chose his portfolio, he found it very hard to find 5 stocks in an uptrend... out of 6,000. It doesn't get much more ominous than that. If we sound bearish, it's just looking for a short term move. When the market falls, it usually overshoots on the downside and then rallies back to the moving average, then drops again. It doesn't take the elevator down, it takes the stairs. That's how it was in 2000-2001. This time we haven't seen a rally to the moving average, but rather this ongoing sideways consolidation of the October plunge. When the market gets back to its moving average (if it does), whether via a rally or via consolidation, we fully expect another leg down which breaks the lows. When the market drops to the lows, we get bullish short term, but we're bearish on the big picture.
Hopefully the PPT will bail us out each time we try to break the lows. Otherwise, on one of these iterations, the market is going to plunge once and for all.
snot,
Since you turned so bearish now, what are you going to do with your DDM holdings that you bought at 31.90?
Is there any point in averaging down while holding these index ETFs?
regarding FXP, not sure what's going on, looks like it's being manipulated and did not move higher even DOW is down.
I think FXP will have its days, it's just a matter of time. what do you think?
thebat
Probably the opposite this time, the moving average will plunge to the market.
FXP is the inverse of the FTSE/XINHUA CHINA 25 index.
Which last night was positive (I believe)
All those 25 companies that are listed as ADR's in NYSE today didn't go down that much to bring FXI down that much so FXP could go up that much :-)
Hope this helps
Not that it matters anyway (way to early) but the HSI index is down 380 points already. If all goes "well" FXP will have a nice jump tomorrow.
Lately China is been trading independently from the rest of the world.
They think they can do it by themselves :-) Wishful thinking.
Sorry, but back on LDK subject. I believe LDK will blow out these earnings and run for couple of days. We will see how the market conditions will look like on Wednesday. LDK will probably announce poly production on its 1000mt plant and partial commissioning of its 15000mt plant. They will most likely guide higher and blow analyst estimates. Looking at the price action in the past few days, I see much more strength in the stock than usual. People seem to be holding on, but yes, you are correct snot, no stock is safe right now. Hedge funds are destroying this country and the world economy. Everyone here is making silly predictions as if the market will find a magical cure at DOW 7100, or 6500. This thinking will get you in trouble. As a matter of fact, it already has. I guess this is how a human mind works. People are already scared $hitless and don't spend money. It's all fault of media and WS crooks. Figuring out how to make money is a matter of figuring out how the actual scam works. It all comes down to who can cheat more money out of the guy next door.
j
Snot, thank you for re-opening the 'where's the bottom' poll. For grins, it would be interesting to know if this time around folks are revising their vote up or down. I think this is a great barometer of current sentiment and helps to consolidate much of the posts in one quick snapshot.
Thanks, too, to all who post excellent articles. I don't have the luxury of spending lots of time trolling for these nuggets, so having them brought here is very helpful.
What about DDM? I sort of agree with thebat. At this point would it make more sense to just let it go and jump on board the reverse ETF train? For the past 1 1/2 months I've waited for a big run-up, like Thurs., bought near the close, then sold a short time later. Sold QID today at 81.16 for a quick gain of 11.3%. So, I made 11% on 20% of my portfolio for an overall gain of 2.2%. Do that a few times, and it actually starts to feel good. The thing is, not once have these silly big gains lasted more than a day or so. I just jump back and forth between the NASDAQ, DOW, Financials, etc., and whenever they spike up, I jump in.
Here's an offer for you: when all is over in the next couple of years, and you've made a tidy pile, I'll build you the home of your dreams. Now that, I'm really good at.
"There is apparently a lot more CDS paper out that has been created out of thin air than could ever be backed by even low rated bad loans. IMO, this is criminal financial maneuvering that should be well punished."
Is this equivalent to naked short stocks?
Listen folks, FXP moves near randomly. Plot it on a chart compared to FXI and you can see that it bears near no relation. To be an effective hedge it should react in a predictable manner in the event of a drop in the index it is hedging against. It doesnt, but rather sometimes doubles in value, and others fails to react at all..
DUG vs oil does exactly the same and i woudlnt be keen on either as a result..
agr8gem,
It was that article is was talking about.
One interesting point you mentioned is that no one knows who owes what in CDS's but everyone knows the total number is huge.
I have been working on that since february trying to work out who had the other half of swaps against MBIA and Ambac but i couldnt find out at all. So i just shorted JPM, CITI and AIG as they were the three with the biggest exposure. AIG was obviously a spectacular success but the time value of the options deteriorated enough that Citi and JPM were ok but not great.
That article was the very first i have ever seen to name the companies selling the swaps, IE Deutche bank and Goldman and its a pity i didnt see it 6 weeks ago. However the article implys that these companies still dont know how much they are on the hook for and its an assessment i tend to agree with.
Swaps dont become payable in until a company (or CDO) actually defaults so maybe he writedowns have disguised have fact that the markets havent actually collapsed yet. They only reflect the certainty that they WILL default at some future point. If the actual defaults havent started then there could be many more writedowns when these swaps become payable.
Now this isspeculation and i dont know this is the case but i cant get away from the fact that we are hearing nothing about swaps and by rights they should be causing chaos if things are as bad as we are led to believe..
Either way i'm gonna be watching GS for a short opportunity very closely... If these companies really dont know how much they are on hook for it would imply that the fall is still ahead of us as if it was behind us they would know about it. That suggests that there is still profits to be made..
Sorry, but I laugh at the poll and people that think it is a good indicator of the future.
Release a poll in a negative environment, you'll see negative results. Release a poll in a positive environment, you'll see positive results.
Just makes a plain sense!
FXP typically doesnt move unpredictably... rather it just depreciates by a small % each day due to cost overhead. All double etf's act in a similar way. However, over the past 10 days it has begun to exhibit odd behavior. But look at the volume on that sucker. lol. It may be too much for them to digest short-term. I would take a look at BGZ. It's really starting to gain popularity. It's the most actively traded of the 3X bearish ETFs.
As for LDK I'm hoping for at least one more rally to about $19. I knew the last solar rally was doomed when FSLR closed just below my target of $153 on Nov 5. That saved me a lot of money. I should have dumped all of it but I held on and then bought a big stack when it went under $13 again. Got to be long on something I guess. It's an ok trade but I'd rather just focus on the 3X short ETFs from now on. Like Snot said, buying the ultrashorts when the market rallies is the only consistently profitable trade for 2008.
Anonymous said...
Quoting Kay "There is apparently a lot more CDS paper out that has been created out of thin air than could ever be backed by even low rated bad loans. IMO, this is criminal financial maneuvering that should be well punished."
Is this equivalent to naked short stocks?
Well, yes it's the same thing, but on a much bigger level. I can't even say exactly HOW MUCH bigger a level - -perhaps someone here more well versed than I am could do this.
I only learned what a credit default swap was about 3 months ago, and I have been studying hard to gain a more comprehensive understanding of exactly how our country's financial system has become so decimated, with these CDS's at the heart of the problem. It's a very highly complicated subject.
I hope an expert will contribute their 2 cents worth.
Agr8gem57
Our idea was to sell all longs and move completely to Ultrashorts when the market rallied. Problem is, the rallies haven't been compelling enough. Now we're in a position where we either sell at break even on the next rally, or double (maybe triple) the position on a severe drop. So the market decides our next move. Wish we could short individual stocks. This year would have been a lot better if we could. We were bearish on C, MER, FNM, FRE, LEH, GM and BCSI over a year ago.
Of the group, BCSI remains a great short, and Gary's best performing pick. It will be $5 someday.
For all the LDKers out there...
Maybe LDK will get a pop out of earnings, maybe not. The bottom line is that you're betting on a Stage 4 stock in a Stage 4 sector in a Stage 4 market. Good luck with that.
Anon, this blog is not always a negative environment. Recent negativity is just a sign of the times. The poll has both bulls and bears voting, and likely represents very widespread sentiment, as the posters here are from all walks of life, and from all corners of the globe.
sbbuilder, you're doing a lot better than us in this market. If we start performing like you, maybe you can build our next house! Do you build in NY? What are the numbers like in Michigan? Here, the low end is $200/sqft, mid range is $350/sqft, and high end is $500 and up.
Here's what Paul Volcker has to say about things.
Another great Link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/3474683/Volcker-issues-dire-warning-on-slump.html
Hey Snot,
how do those numbers compare to say 2 years ago? Is that City or State?
Has property dropped to the point where a 25 year mortgage can be covered by the rent yet?
How about an "absolutely no idea" Option in the poll...
Conor, those are numbers for residential construction only. There is not much difference compared to 2 years ago. The big difference is between now and about 5 years ago. People talk about pre-Katrina and post-Katrina prices. Hurricane Katrina marks the turning point where material costs skyrocketed. Plywood, for example, went from $20 to $36 per sheet at its peak. Concrete doubled from $100 per yard installed to $200. Of course it took a few years to happen, but Katrina was a pivotal time.
Not sure about commercial rent, but as for residential, a house that costs $600k rents for $2,000 to $2,500 per month.
Are the numbers any better in Ireland?
To the FXPers, I stopped buying this for one reason: STRESS. I felt like a small ship in a hurricane. Sure, you'll get a lot of movement, but at some point I felt clueless as to the direction. There's already a massive amount of uncertainty in the market. Do you want to compound that even further?
Up to now, I know squat about CDS's. Can someone who has a good understanding give the rest of us a quick summary; sort of a current events prog? In short, is there another Titanic/iceberg meeting about to happen? (Thanks, Kay, for bringing this up, and then re-bringing it up.)
Building in Michigan right now stinks. I've been in the industry for 26 years, and can say that nothing compares to this. The big difference this time is that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Snot, you're right, housing IS one of the major pillars of our economy, and at this point, as everybody knows, its broken. Material costs have recently seen a slight decrease, but labor costs are way down. Sometimes you have to wonder if its worth getting your tools out of your truck, because you will barely break even. Another thing: it doesn't seem to matter how good you are. If you are on the playing field, you are going to get hit.
I've built as far West as Nevada, and as far East as North Carolina. Never built anything in NY. The numbers you refer to vary considerably according to the community. Here in Ann Arbor, the numbers are comparable. The U of M underpins much of the local economy. Last year, though, Pfizer pulled out. They were the largest employer apart from the U. And so it goes....
Hi Snotwheel,
have you discussed Solars previously?
Are you saying all Solars are stage 4 stocks? and what is stage 4? :)
thank you
Disclosure: short FSLR for better part of 2008
sbbuilder, sorry to hear the building business is that bad in Ann Arbor. It is no better here in NY. The industry was flooded with workers in past years, many of whom have moved on to other types of work. We know a builder who owned a construction company and was making over $200k. He now works for the building department making $40k. With a wife and 2 kids, that's no picnic. Many spec houses here have been put on hold. The lucky ones got them enclosed to weather before running out of funds.
Phantasmix, just about everything is Stage 4. Read Stan Weinstein's Secrets for Profiting in Bull and Bear Markets, where the 4 stages are explained in depth. Stage 4 is a downtrend, and they can last for years. The stages are not momentary events.
most of TA tells us, dow will hit 8900 in this week.
I emailed ProShares about the erratic/inaccurate price movements in the FXP. Their answer below, (the link at the bottom explains much regarding leveraged ETFs’ day-to-day price fluctuations):
. . . the UltraShort FTSE/Xinhua China 25 ProShare (trading ticker FXP) seeks daily investment results, before fees and expenses, that correspond to twice (200%) the inverse of the daily performance of the FTSE/Xinhua China 25 Index.
Because the value of the Index is not computed as of the close of the U.S. securities markets due to differences in trading hours between U.S. and foreign markets, correlation to the Index will be measured by comparing the daily change in the Fund’s net asset value per share to the performance of one or more U.S. exchange traded securities or instruments that reflect the value the values of the securities underlying the Index as of the close of the U.S. securities markets. This variation in market trading hours between the U.S. and the FTSE/Xinhua China 25 Index, can lead to variances in the tracking of FXP. Additionally, it is important to note that FXP trades like a stock and as such, the market price is subject to supply and demand.
Please note that ProShares’ primary exchange is the AMEX, but the securities trade on other exchanges as well. There are often inefficiencies in the reporting of executed trades or in the current bid and offers that are displayed on the exchanges. This may have created the disparities you are referring to. You may want to consult with your broker dealer representative to seek additional information on the market reports you are reviewing.
Lastly, per the prospectus, “the Funds do not seek to achieve their stated investment objective over a period of time greater than one day because mathematical compounding prevents the Funds from achieving such results”. Below you will find a link to an article from www.proshares.com that further addresses this point.
http://www.proshares.com/funds/performance/UnderstandingProSharesLongTermPerformance.html
agd21
I enjoyed your negativity about the market from these levels, with the risk of a 6000 Dow coming around the corner if this descending triangle holds true.
And I have an analogy for this year's market. Its "Like playing a rigged carnival game while someone picks your pocket."
- dcbinkowski@ameritech.net
Watch this: http://www.cnbc.com/id/27780998
Talk of a descending triangle is reaching mainstream. I wonder what effect that will have.
I just bought some Nov. and Dec. calls. dow is bottom now.
With the market still digesting a lot of bad news, i don't think a bottom is in. I think the fate of GM/Ford will have certain impact on the market. it's like flipping a coin to call for a bottom now.
thebat
I don't think the bottom is in...CASH and wait on sideline or Short only...
sorry,if you can't predicate the market, you will lose money.
I agree with bigboy8882008. Bottom is here or at least we're going up for a while.
Good trading everybody!
LeBlanc
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