What a light sentence, just a year for every 27 million stolen... from charities no less.
Bernie should have gotten a year for each $20,000 stolen, much like "blue collar" criminals would have gotten. That would put Bernie behind bars for the next 200,000 years. But as a "white collar" criminal, Bernie gets a slap on the wrist like his other Wall Street peers.
Of course he'll die in jail, so it doesn't really matter what his sentence is from that standpoint, but for those of us doing the math, white collar crime is looking like a good way to make a living.
Perhaps the criminal system will redeem itself somewhat and lock up everyone who was in on the scheme, including his wife and his sons.
Nonetheless, Bernie's sentence restores some of the faith that we all lost in Wall Street over the past few years. Maybe just 1% of it, but it's a start.
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Don't be ridiculous, Snot. You don't hand out the sentence based on so many years for so many dollars except in broad categories. You don't hand out a sentence based on so many years based simply on from whom one stole from. If one stole from GS instead of charities, would that justify the crime? Madoff was given the "maximum" sentence possible. You don't like the sentence, get yourself elected and get the laws our our country rewritten. The judge "cited the unprecedented nature of the multibillion-dollar fraud as he sentenced Madoff to the maximum of 150 years in prison, a term comparable only to those given in the past to terrorists, traitors and the most violent criminals" according to the AP news story. Get over it Snot.
I agree with Snot, the only "just" punishment would be for Madoff's wife and sons to get duplicate 150 year prison sentences. Preferably before Bernie dies, so he doesn't die thinking he was successful in protecting them.
Madoff's trial is over. The potential cases for other people are not necessarily over. CNBC announced today that other indictments are likely to be announced soon. Justice for Madoff is not determined by whether or not justice is handed out to another person. Would you want to be judged in court on the basis of another person's actions? You have just convicted Madoff's wife and sons. So you have evidence and you have proven that they are likewise guilty and deserving of 150 years? They may be, but who appointed you the judge and jury. Geez. Let the justice system run its course.
Joe, you're right that the justice system must run its course. But you have to understand both sides of the issue. Investors everywhere are frustrated with Wall Street justice. The SEC is a joke. Its inefficiencies are one of Wall Street's biggest problems. Now that this case is bigger than the SEC, some justice is taking place, but its too little too late as far as most investors (and bankrupted charities) are concerned. No sentence would have been stiff enough when you consider that Madoff caused a few hundred million people (a generation or two) to forever lose faith in our financial system.
Snot, I understand both sides of the issue. I have posted dozens of messages about the paper tiger SEC over the years. I have sent a half a dozen emails to the SEC regarding what I perceived were trading irregularities over the years, all to no avail. Have you? But you are comparing apples with Mac trucks. You are saying, in essence, that because the SEC has not done its job for years, Madoff should have been drawn and quartered. Is that it? Furthermore, in our justice system, a criminal is punished for a crime based on the action and the intent, as best as that intent can be perceived in a fair trial. For example, 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, etc. Madoff was convicted of theft. He was not convicted of destroying people's faith in capitalism and a free market economy. Snot, you've got to understand both sides of the issue.
Things not going so well in your personal life there Joe?
Things are great, Anon. Great wife, kids, and grandkids. Very, very successful career. Portfolio up very nicely this year. How are things with you there Anonymous? I hope you aren't the Anon who complains about messages being posted that are unrelated to trading information that attack individuals.
Now it all makes sense.
Joe = Iconoclast421. Don't even try to deny it.
Cliff Clavin = Snot = this blog has become worthless
Joe, this is no longer a discussion about the stock market, but it's interesting nonetheless.
We don't agree that a criminal is punished for a crime based on the action and the intent. Here's an example...
A person has a few drinks and then drives a car. They hit a pedestrian and are arrested for DWI.
If the victim walks away from the accident, the driver faces relatively light charges.
If instead that pedestrian is killed, the driver faces very serious charges.
There you have it, very different punishments for a crime in which the offender had identical actions and intent. It is the effect of a crime that determines its severity, not the actions nor the intent.
So we have to put aside Madoff's "intent" and focus on his effect.
You also asked if we're saying that because the SEC hasn't done its job for years that we think Madoff should be drawn and quartered.
No, of course not! The SEC's lack of performance has nothing to do with why we think Madoff should be drawn and quartered. Even if the SEC didn't exist, we would not expect Madoff to bankrupt charities. It's a disease in this country that people no longer take responsibility for their own actions. Clearly if a Wall Streeter breaks the system, it's the system's fault. The system should have been perfect, it should have been policed. Whatever happened to blaming the people that actually break the laws? That would require widespread public acceptance of the concept of personal accountability. We don't have that, so the next best thing is to blame the guys responsible for babysitting everyone. They, in turn, will blame the people who babysit them, and so on and so forth until you reach the guy at the top who just doesn't give a crap. How about blaming the little guy at the bottom who knew better all along but acted with gross negligence and blatant diregard for other people's well-being? Madoff is that guy.
Snot, I don't have a clue what you are trying to say. If that were turned in to me as an essay in a class at the university, I'm sorry. It would not get a very good grade from me. Madoff got the "maximum" sentence. Which part of "maximum" do you not understand?
Now, as far as investments go, Snot, how far do you think this correction will go?
Of course you don't have a clue what Snot's trying to say. That's why you're a teacher. Everyone knows the saying "Those who can, do...those who CAN'T, teach."
Never more true than in Joe/Iconoclast421's case.
Hey does the dow daily chart look like a head and shoulders pattern is emerging. Anyone have any ideas, im not a pro at technical analysis but is there a neckline at 8250?
Joe, we have no idea what you're trying to say. Even with the help of Altavista's Babel Fish translator, we were unable to decipher your hieroglyphs.
It is a head and shoulders pattern. We don't look for (or talk much about) patterns around here. It makes you sound like you're using voodoo magic to predict the stock market. Nothing will make people discount your input faster than you pointing out an upside down flying doji master pattern on a stock chart.
That said, you're right about the H&S pattern. The psychology behind it is what's troubling. The market failed to make a new high as it had been doing for the past 4 months. In fact, it didn't even reach its old high (set in June). Now, it's resting on a support level. Once broken, the trend will be one of lower lows and lower highs. It's the old adage "sell in May and go away".
Avoid the summer. We're out of the market to begin with, just because a 3.5 month, 33% rally in a bear market is enough of a gift. And yes, it's still a bear. Until we trade above an uptrending 200dma, it's a bear.
If we do break support (Dow 8200 or so), we should be able to drop another 400 points pretty easily just for starters. There's weak support at 7800. A return to 6500 is unlikely, but 7200 to 7400 seems realistic. If this selloff does continue, we'll be scaling back in as it drops. At 7,000, we would have no qualms about going "all in".
This is what happens when there are multiple failures in a complex society, and those with a modicum or rationality try to make sense of it. The attempt at explaining a society tearing apart at the seams is both painful and confusing. There are elements of truth in both what Snot has to say, and also Joe. Let's leave it at that. The bigger picture is that we are left with problems so acute and monstrous that we, as a society, can hardly begin to put them into perspective.
Well said, Sb. Joe and I can agree to disagree. The derivatives market (and all of its derivatives) have become so complex that most Wall Street pros admit that they don't understand them themselves.
Separately, with regard to investing:
I really wonder to what degree the market has all these variables "priced in". Supposedly that is the case. The 33% return Snot just alluded to is, in my view, too much of a bounce, too quick. I truly must stop being surprised at how much emotion plays a part in professional investing.
Here in the wonderful doomsday state of Michigan, things have gone from bad to worse. There is a real sense of hunkering down and just trying to last through the hurricane. We are in for a very, very rough time.
Lastly, Immelt went near to the top of my most admired list when he gave a talk at the Detroit Economic Club and said that we need to manufacture our way out of this morass. Amen. Couldn't have said it better. No amount of Wall Street financial voodoo will help one whit. We actually need to make stuff the world wants to buy. Pure and simple.
Thanx snot, i see your point about patterns but it helps me to determine when to buy/sell than to blindly get into or outta the market. I was thinking maybe the dow will get to 7500 again which would then make a reverse H & S pattern emerge starting with the first shoulder hitting in late november, I like T & A.
Anybody been watching AIG? They did a reverse split and took it from $1 up above $20. Now it is dropping so fast that it may go back to $1. Oh the horror. Oh the pain.
Yeah, I saw that. AIG was one of my very few winners. Bought it right at the bottom around .80 and sold it when I doubled my money. The reverse split is scary. I own some FAZ and FXP I wondered how they were going to continue to go down forever. Now I know. Give it a year and I will have one share left:0)
Snot,
If your not going to be offering commentary on your own picks because your not in the market how about offering some thoughts on other peoples stock choices? The blog is not going anywhere without you commenting on something regularly.....Ok I know I said I was not going to trade anymore after the beating I took in the crash, but it is fun so I have kept a small trading fund to play with. So here are my current major positions. Short - HOG, S, WYNN, DRI, RTN
Long - FXI
I am not a day trader, mostly playing the trend and moving average
I agree, that reverse stock split on FAS and FAZ should prove to everyone what a complete and total scam those 3X Ultra Inverse Rebalanced Daily ETFs are. Undoubtedly the intent was to skim money off the top and confuse shareholders while at the same time prolonging it's inevitable slide to 0.14 cents so the MMs can keep on making money all the way down. Bravo Wall Street!
I just love the delusional Cliff Clavin nonsense. While you're showing off your television brainwashing, I am making money hand over fist. The top I called back at the beginning of May is holding true for financials. FAZ is now trading higher than it was back then (yes even the split-adjusted value). But more importantly, I've made more than 50% trading FAZ since financials topped. Not bad for a "scam". Note: its only a scam to those who dont know how to read a prospectus. Enjoy your delusions and fantasies of how I am joe or some tv character. Do whatever it takes to make the losses bearable! May cold hard reality never shatter your paradigm!
Me thinks that Icon doth protest too much.
Does anyone else think it's highly suspicious that Icon never posts any sells? Only buy "calls" that are wrong most of the time? His recent Ag "call" was so laughable and so wrong that it leads me to ask why would anyone take this clown seriously?
I mean think about it: The only time we "learn" (LOL!) of his supposed profits are after the fact. Always after the fact.
Ya, we all believe you Cliff. Please, "teach" us some more. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
If you guys are interested in a good financial show try "The Tom O'brien show at: tfnn.com He is live from 4pm-6pm, M-F EST. I download it on my computer live if you can't get one of the stations he's on. He is very good and has quite a few callers ask him about stocks. He follows swing trading and channeling. He has a good book he wrote a few years ago called: "TIMING THE TRADE" Maybe some of you have already heard of him.
Eric was trying to pick a career and Donna said to him:
"You know a ton of things that aren't useful in any way and you have no skills whatsoever...YOU SHOULD BE A TEACHER!!!"
I'll say it again because the poster that keeps referencing Cliff Clavin doesn't seem to be listening: your posts bashing icon are FAR more annoying than icon's posts.
Can't you give it a rest already? I for one am REALLY TIRED of reading your STUPID posts that only bash icon. We all get it, you don't believe icon is being truthful. Fine. But, no one needs you here to save the rest of us from icon, get it?
Oh, and I know you're going to reply to this post stating I am icon posting under another ID. Your MO is so freakin' predictable!
If there were a vote on snot's blog on who we want to go away; icon or you, I would vote you off this blog 10 times over!!!
At least Icon says something about the market. All the Cliff 70s TV show moron does is insult people and show what a total 100% Jack Ass he is.
Hi i have been reading this blog for a while and i would like to get a discussion on how the markets behaving and maybe we can all make money together. Im interested in the solar stocks and have been looking at LDK and CSIQ charts. I think CSIQ has more room to fall looks like support is at $7.50 area, but thats if the overall market tanks one more time.
Ive been trying to study the spx and dow charts and i see that the head and shoulders has formed and the neckline on the dow has been broken however on puny volume, so any ideas whats going to happen. The markets have bucked the uptrend and started a downtrend but how strong do u think the downtrend is. The volume is very weak which makes me think the dow might go to 7800 and bounce off it. Any ideas to share?
Im also interested in the financials, like UYG and FAZ, I believe FAZ follows the russell finacial index ($RIFIN) and UYG the DJ US Financial index, and seems like both indices are very close to support maybe just a little below it. I dont really know which direction the markets want to go, seems like supports are being broken through or very close to,which makes me want to believe the markets have further downside but the volume is not very convincing.
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